Magistrate class 8 5pm 31st Jan

  2011-02-01 02:11:12 note card

Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Week 8 Quiz (Final Class)

Instructor: Janette Inglewood

Observers:

• Lady Auglia (signed up for next course round)

• Charles Esharham (Magistrate of Olni and GLA tutor)

Participants (taking the quiz):

• Sherman Easterwood

• Georgia Beorn

• Candaris Randt

• Jessie Sinister (joined late, observed quiz as previous class winner)

Meeting Summary:

The eighth and final week of the Magistrates course concluded with a quiz game led by Janette Inglewood, designed to test the participants' knowledge of Gorean laws and judicial procedures. Lady Auglia and Charles Esharham observed the session.

Quiz Questions and Answers (with correct answers confirmed by Janette Inglewood):

1. Penalty for a slave claiming caste? Death.

2. Most heinous crime on Gor? Theft of a Homestone.

3. Name 3 types of Law? Caste, Civil, Merchant, (Initiate also accepted).

4. Name 3 types of people who may enter any city freely? Ambassadors, Heralds, Players, Poets, Musicians and Singers, Assassins (Georgia correctly named Poets, Musicians, Assassins).

5. Penalty for a slave striking a Free? Impalement, possibly with torture before death.

6. Punishment for someone who started a forest fire? To be burnt alive (under Merchant Law).

7. What does "non compos mentis" mean? Not being of sound mind / not responsible for their actions / nuts.

8. In court, who is the Plaintiff? The person or group bringing the charges / the accuser.

9. Why might you conduct a pre-trial report? To gather information for the trial, ensure everyone is aware of relevant details, and decide if a trial is feasible or if there's a case to answer.

10. Explain the difference between Civil Laws and Sim Rules? Sim rules are mainly OOC guidelines for how the "game" is played on a sim; Civil laws are an IC tool for cities that can be broken.

11. An armed Warrior enters a temple. His slave, unbidden, follows Him. What is the crime here? Slaves are not allowed in the temple as they defile it (weapons are fine).

12. Name 3 examples of OOC information that should be deemed inadmissible in a Gorean court of Law? Profile information, tags, meter labels, Instant Messages, or anything from off-Gor (e.g., other roleplay settings).

13. Why are male slaves often exempted from wearing visible tokens of slavery? So their true (larger) numbers are not known, to keep them in check and prevent uprisings.

14. What is the primary reason that means Earth girls can be subject to capture and enslavement? They are considered barbarians and have no Homestone.

15. Why might a tunic with a different colored lining lead to possible impalement? Because it could be turned inside out to hide identity or commit possible caste fraud.

16. Under what form of law should the denial of the existence of the Priest Kings be handled in the central cities? Initiate Law.

Conclusion:

All three active participants in the quiz (Sherman, Georgia, and Candaris) successfully passed the course. Janette thanked them for their hard work and encouraged them to promote fair play, justice, and good roleplay. She and Charles Esharham also offered continued support and assistance for any future needs related to law or advocates. The class concluded with well wishes for all attendees.

- Summary: Kati Evans

==========================================================================

 allowing me to observe Lady Janette *smiles*

[17:01] janette Inglewood: firstly let me introduce Lady Auglia....just here to observe

[17:02] Sherman Easterwood: Welcome Lady Auglia

[17:02] janette Inglewood: She is signed up for the next round of courses

[17:02] janette Inglewood: and Charles.......Magistrate of Olni and tutor for the GLA

[17:02] Charles Esharham nods

[17:03] Sherman Easterwood nods at Charles

[17:03] janette Inglewood: this is our little group for people who cant make the main class at 1pm

[17:03] janette Inglewood: and this is week 8 of 8

[17:04] Sherman Easterwood: It has gone by quickly

[17:04] janette Inglewood: yes...shocking really

[17:05] janette Inglewood: i like to finish the course with a little quiz game

[17:05] Georgia Beorn: eeps...

[17:05] Charles Esharham chuckles

[17:05] janette Inglewood: the earlier group...was a team of 6 against a team of 5

[17:05] Georgia Beorn: as long as it centres on what treves dungeon looks like I can win this one

[17:05] Sherman Easterwood cringes

[17:05] janette Inglewood: Jessies team won 8-7

[17:06] janette Inglewood: now Charles cant play...He should know them all

[17:06] janette Inglewood: and Auglia is observing

[17:06] janette Inglewood: so...its individual im afraid

[17:07] Georgia Beorn shakes her head knowing shes in trouble now

[17:07] Charles Esharham: i will observe, Lady. always something to learn.

[17:07] Sherman Easterwood looks over at Candaris

[17:07] janette Inglewood chuckles

[17:07] Sherman Easterwood looks at Georgia

[17:08] Georgia Beorn: beams confidently

[17:08] janette Inglewood: right then....here we go

[17:08] janette Inglewood: Georgia.......

[17:08] Sherman Easterwood shrugs knowing he is in trouble as well

[17:08] Georgia Beorn: coughs

[17:08] janette Inglewood: What is the penalty for a slave claiming caste?

[17:09] Georgia Beorn: erm - death?

[17:09] janette Inglewood: correct

[17:09] janette Inglewood: Sherman......

[17:09] Georgia Beorn mops her brow

[17:09] Sherman Easterwood looks intently

[17:09] janette Inglewood: What is the most heinous crime on Gor?

[17:10] Sherman Easterwood: theft of a Home Stone?

[17:10] janette Inglewood: correct

[17:10] Sherman Easterwood lets out breath

[17:10] janette Inglewood: Candaris

[17:11] janette Inglewood: Name 3 types of Law?

[17:12] Candaris Randt: Caste, civil and merchant?

[17:12] janette Inglewood: i will accept...yes

[17:12] janette Inglewood: Initiate is another...Caste....will do

[17:12] janette Inglewood: splendid

[17:13] janette Inglewood: Georgia,,,,,,

[17:13] janette Inglewood: Name 3 types of people who may enter any city freely?

[17:14] Georgia Beorn: players..

[17:14] janette Inglewood: 1

[17:14] Georgia Beorn: poets, musicians (are they separate types??) Assassins...

[17:15] janette Inglewood: well done

[17:15] janette Inglewood: Ambassadors, Heralds, Players, Poets, Musicians and Singers, Assassins.

[17:15] janette Inglewood: Sherman......

[17:16] janette Inglewood: What is the penalty for a slave striking a Free?

[17:16] Sherman Easterwood: impalement

[17:17] janette Inglewood: yes...anything else?

[17:17] Sherman Easterwood: It may also be decided that they be tortured before the death

[17:17] janette Inglewood: exactly

[17:18] janette Inglewood: Candaris.....

[17:18] janette Inglewood: What is the punishment for someone who started a forest fire?

[17:19] Candaris Randt: Well I spose that woudl depends on who owned the forest and what the magistrate decided.

[17:19] janette Inglewood: well there is a set one in merchant law...very apt

[17:20] Candaris Randt: branding?

[17:20] janette Inglewood: rather worse im afraid...to be burnt alive

[17:20] Georgia Beorn: tasty

[17:20] TheNewKassandra: eep

[17:20] Georgia Beorn: bbq arsonist

[17:20] Candaris Randt: I actually thought of that, but thought it was a bit too much

[17:20] Candaris Randt laughs

[17:20] janette Inglewood: yes....dont go starting fires

[17:20] Georgia Beorn: shame you can't do that on earth

[17:21] janette Inglewood: Georgia........

[17:21] janette Inglewood: What does "non compos mentis" mean?

[17:21] Georgia Beorn: nuts

[17:22] janette Inglewood: well yes

[17:22] Georgia Beorn: not responsible for their action

[17:22] Georgia Beorn: s

[17:22] Charles Esharham chuckles

[17:22] Georgia Beorn: or not capable of being responsible for

[17:22] TheNewKassandra: hehe

[17:22] janette Inglewood: not being of sound mind...so...nuts

[17:22] Georgia Beorn grins

[17:22] Georgia Beorn: I like succinct definitions

[17:22] janette Inglewood: Sherman......

[17:23] janette Inglewood: In court, who is the Plaintiff?

[17:24] Sherman Easterwood: The person or group bringing the charges against another

[17:24] janette Inglewood: yes thats right....the accuser

[17:24] Jessie Sinister: Sorry, Lady. Just wanted to sit and listen, if thats' acceptable

[17:24] janette Inglewood: Tal Jessie.......this is the winning captain from the ear;ier class

[17:25] Georgia Beorn: he just wants to see if he's still number one

[17:25] Georgia Beorn grins

[17:25] janette Inglewood: Candaris.......

[17:25] Sherman Easterwood: Tal Jessie

[17:25] janette Inglewood: Why might You conduct a pre-trial report?

[17:25] TheNewKassandra: Tal Free *she nods to Jessie as she turns back to the class*

[17:27] Candaris Randt: To gather all the information needed for the trial and pass it along to the head magistrate and make sure that everyone is aware of all teh relevant details. Perhaps even to decide if a trial is feasible at all.

[17:27] Jessie Sinister: My team won, Lady. And, the reality is, we all did.

[17:27] Jessie Sinister smiles

[17:27] janette Inglewood: correct

[17:28] janette Inglewood: To see if there's a case to answer specifically

[17:28] janette Inglewood: right back to Georgia.......

[17:29] janette Inglewood: Explain the difference between Civil Laws and Sim Rules?

[17:30] Georgia Beorn: sim rules are mainly ooc to define the way the 'game' is played on a sim.. Civil laws are an IC tool for the cities, which can be broken (so to speak)

[17:30] janette Inglewood: correct

[17:30] janette Inglewood: Sherman.....

[17:31] janette Inglewood: An armed Warrior enters a temple. His slave, unbidden, follows Him. What is the crime here?

[17:31] Sherman Easterwood: Slaves are not allowed in the temple

[17:31] janette Inglewood: yes correct....but weapons are fine

[17:32] janette Inglewood: slaves defile a temple

[17:32] janette Inglewood: Candaris.....

[17:32] janette Inglewood: Name 3 examples of OOC information that should be deemed inadmissable in a Gorean court of Law?

[17:33] Candaris Randt: Profile information, something that was told to you ooc or gained in another ooc manner such as knowing the person is guilty and

[17:34] janette Inglewood: yes good so far

[17:35] Candaris Randt: anything that would be done ooc out of gor such as how a fw would be dressed outside of gor

[17:35] janette Inglewood looks above her head

[17:35] Georgia Beorn: tags!

[17:36] Georgia Beorn: oops

[17:36] Candaris Randt: lol yes, tags

[17:36] janette Inglewood: yes correct......profiles....tags...meter labels...Im's

[17:36] janette Inglewood: and of course anything off gor

[17:36] janette Inglewood: we seem to have people who also play vampires and demons and stuff

[17:37] janette Inglewood: Georgia......

[17:37] janette Inglewood: Why are male slaves often exempted from wearing visible tokens of slavery?

[17:38] Georgia Beorn: erm - that I dontknow

[17:38] janette Inglewood: anyone?

[17:39] Sherman Easterwood: @

[17:39] janette Inglewood: Sherman?

[17:39] Sherman Easterwood: So there true numbers are not known...to keep them in check so they will not attempt to rise up

[17:39] Sherman Easterwood: their^^

[17:39] janette Inglewood: correct

[17:40] janette Inglewood: and now Your question......

[17:41] janette Inglewood: What is the primary reason that means earth girls can be subject to capture and enslavement?

[17:42] Sherman Easterwood: They are considered barbarnians and do not know the way or customs of Gor. Therefore they are nothing.

[17:43] janette Inglewood: yes..they have no homestone

[17:44] janette Inglewood: Candaris.......

[17:44] janette Inglewood: Why might a tunic with a different coloured lining lead to possible impalement?

[17:45] Candaris Randt: because it could be turned inside out and hide identity

[17:46] janette Inglewood: yes....and possible caste fraud

[17:46] janette Inglewood: i so hate how Olni doesnt answer the gate

[17:46] janette Inglewood: it lets us down so badly

[17:46] janette Inglewood: maybe we should just scrap it

[17:46] Sherman Easterwood: The same trouble happens at other cities

[17:47] Georgia Beorn: impale them!!

[17:47] janette Inglewood: its pathetic

[17:47] janette Inglewood: right question to all

[17:47] TheNewKassandra: scrap what?

[17:47] Sherman Easterwood nods "A contstant battle to get someone to answer the gate"

[17:47] janette Inglewood: having a gate at all Auglia

[17:48] janette Inglewood: Under what form of law should the denial of the existence of the Priest Kings be handled in the central cities?

[17:48] Jessie Sinister: Forgive me, Lady, I did not hear the bell

[17:48] Candaris Randt: @

[17:48] Jessie Sinister OOC : relay not working

[17:48] janette Inglewood: open to anyone

[17:48] Georgia Beorn: Initiate

[17:48] janette Inglewood: Candaris?

[17:48] Candaris Randt: initiate was my answer too

[17:49] janette Inglewood: excellent

[17:49] Georgia Beorn: ((manners slipped sorry))

[17:49] janette Inglewood: well done everyone

[17:49] janette Inglewood: i didnt mean You Jessie...i spoke to the girl in im...she left

[17:50] janette Inglewood: i bet there are people near it though

[17:50] Georgia Beorn: waits to receive her shiney gold star

[17:50] Georgia Beorn: chuckles

[17:51] janette Inglewood: well.........You all did very well......always keep the law reference materials to hand

[17:51] janette Inglewood: nobody expects you to know all the laws

[17:51] Jessie Sinister: Your point is no less valid, Lady

[17:51] janette Inglewood: i hope you enjoyed the quiz

[17:51] Georgia Beorn: pass a law that failure to answer the gate willlead to impalement

[17:51] Candaris Randt laughs

[17:51] janette Inglewood laughs...yes

[17:51] Charles Esharham nods

[17:51] Candaris Randt: there would probably be no one left in the cities

[17:52] Georgia Beorn: true

[17:52] Jessie Sinister: I like it!

[17:52] janette Inglewood: just alot of spikes

[17:52] Georgia Beorn: we already impaled most of ours!

[17:52] Georgia Beorn: sniggers

[17:52] Sherman Easterwood: laughs

[17:52] TheNewKassandra: *makes a note to stay in the library away from the gate then* (lol)

[17:52] janette Inglewood laughs

[17:53] Candaris Randt: Thank you so very much for staying up late for this class for 8 weeks, Lady.

[17:53] janette Inglewood: oh Youre very welcome

[17:53] Sherman Easterwood: Yes thank you....I really enjoyed it and learned alot

[17:53] janette Inglewood: thank You for the good work You have put in to it

[17:53] Georgia Beorn: yes lady Janette

[17:54] Georgia Beorn: thanks so much

[17:54] janette Inglewood: all 3 of You pass without question

[17:54] janette Inglewood: and i hope You will spread fair play ...justice and good rp wherever You go

[17:54] Candaris Randt smiles

[17:54] Georgia Beorn: yey!

[17:54] Georgia Beorn: thank you!

[17:54] janette Inglewood: Jessie?

[17:55] Georgia Beorn rummages for her new tag...

[17:55] Sherman Easterwood: We have a good role model to follow who taught us well

[17:55] Charles Esharham: congratulations, Magistrates!

[17:55] Sherman Easterwood: Thank you Sir

[17:55] janette Inglewood: im always here to help....im me or ask in group

[17:55] Georgia Beorn grins

[17:55] Candaris Randt: Thank you.

[17:55] janette Inglewood: as is Charles of course

[17:55] Charles Esharham: -me nods

[17:56] Sherman Easterwood: Thank you both

[17:56] Charles Esharham: of course

[17:56] janette Inglewood: need help...or advocates or anything....let us know

[17:56] Georgia Beorn: well - seems I have slaves to go and flog....

[17:56] Georgia Beorn: thank you al, it's been fun

[17:56] janette Inglewood: be well and thank You

[17:56] Candaris Randt: Be well All

[17:56] Sherman Easterwood: Safe paths all

Magistrate class 5 1pm ..Jan 10th 2011

  2011-01-10 22:25:27 note card

Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 5 (Sentencing)

Instructor: Janette Inglewood

Participants:

• Claudette Debruyere

• Jessie Sinister

• Syd Cicerone

• Sonja Zuta

• Stefania Wildrose

• Lacey Arentire

• Carin McBride

• Hazzard Ruby (joined late, received copy of chat)

• Kandyl Ghoststar (joined late, received copy of chat)

Meeting Summary:

Janette Inglewood led the fifth class of the Magistrates course, focusing on the challenging topic of sentencing in Second Life (SL) Gorean roleplay. She emphasized that sentencing is highly individualized and significantly affected by the limitations of SL.

Key Points and Discussions:

• Book-Based Sentences vs. SL Reality:

  • First-offense theft: In the books, this typically results in ear notching, followed by limb removals for further offenses. This allows other Magistrates to identify repeat offenders.

  • SL limitations: Ear notching and limb removals are difficult to enforce and roleplay convincingly in SL, as it relies on the player to actively roleplay the physical change, which rarely happens.

  • Bans and Fines: Permanent bans can negatively impact sim traffic. Fines are complicated by different in-sim coin systems.

  • Whipping/Imprisonment: Whippings lack actual pain, and imprisonment often leads to "boring RP" for everyone involved.

  • Conclusion: Magistrates need to be imaginative and creative with sentencing to retain a "flavour of the books" while being practical for SL.

• Alternatives and Creative Sentencing:

  • Collaring: This works well in SL but Magistrates must be mindful of the disproportionately high number of collared females in SL compared to book-based ratios. They should avoid adding to this trend indiscriminately.

    • Men rarely accept collars, though some exceptions exist. Janette acknowledged this challenge for female Magistrates.

  • Humiliation/Loss of Honor: Public whippings, while not physically painful, can be harrowing for proud free people. Public stocks were also mentioned as a possibility for Olni.

  • Temporary Bans: Preferred for rule infractions rather than serious law breaks.

  • Loss of Rank/Caste/Privileges: This requires reporting the offense to the Caste Head and requesting the action; typically, Caste Heads agree to such requests.

  • Public Service/Unpaid Duties: Examples include a "she-urt" sentenced to two weeks of cleaning an inn, which became an IC "feature" and enriched the RP. This is seen as more beneficial than simply collaring someone.

• Magistrate's Role in Sentencing:

  • Enforcement & Respect: Sentences must be "workable" and relate to the offense, while having some semblance of book-based authenticity. Magistrates need the support and understanding of their sim's council or leaders (e.g., consulting the Commander for a Guard's sentence).

  • Balance: Janette, while not afraid to sentence harshly for serious crimes, balances this with creativity to encourage continued roleplay.

  • Unwanted Players: For genuinely malicious crimes (e.g., a "treasonous" player who switched sides during a raid, not as a spy for another city but simply out of "nastiness"), a death sentence and/or ban might be appropriate even if it means losing an RP'er, especially if the player is "unwanted."

• Bila Huruma's Sentences: Janette cited examples from the books, particularly Bila Huruma, as a "superb example of finding sentences that match the offence," even if harsh and "manic" (e.g., hanging a tax liar by his tongue; dissolving an FC contract and punishing both parties creatively). These sentences, though extreme, are often "RP-able."

Homework:

• There is no homework for the current week.

• Next week's class will focus on sentencing and will include a new piece of coursework.

• A trial will be held later in the course to put everything into practice.

- Summary: Kati Evans

====================================================================

[13:02] janette Inglewood: tal all and welcome to week 5 of the Magistrate course

[13:02] Claudette Debruyere: smiles

[13:02] Jessie Sinister thinks "Wow! 5?!?"

[13:02] Syd Cicerone blinks at how fast it is going

[13:02] Sonja Zuta smiles

[13:02] janette Inglewood: today we are going to look at sentencing

[13:03] Stefania Wildrose: time does fly

[13:03] janette Inglewood: and then there will be a piece of course work on the subject to do before next week

[13:03] Jessie Sinister nods

[13:03] Sonja Zuta nods

[13:04] janette Inglewood: now of all that we have discussed so far.....this is probably the most individual subject

[13:04] janette Inglewood: whilst there is book guidance on the obvious things...the truth is the things most likely to affect you, are very open ended

[13:05] janette Inglewood: and it tends to be an individual thing

[13:05] janette Inglewood: furthermore Sl affects it to quite a degree

[13:06] janette Inglewood: for example.....what is the usual sentence for a first offence of theft?

[13:06] Jessie Sinister brain cramp

[13:06] Sonja Zuta is not sure

[13:06] Stefania Wildrose: @

[13:06] Carin McBride grins

[13:06] janette Inglewood: well..btb it is ear notching

[13:07] Syd Cicerone: depends on the homestone

[13:07] Syd Cicerone: lol

[13:07] Sonja Zuta: cool

[13:07] janette Inglewood: this enables any Magistrate in any City to see the person was convicted

[13:07] janette Inglewood: sorry Stefania.....was that your answer?

[13:08] Jessie Sinister pssst..say "yes" /winks

[13:08] janette Inglewood: so.....when someone come before You...check their ear

[13:08] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:08] Stefania Wildrose: mens hands cut of and women enslavement??

[13:08] janette Inglewood: further offences are limb removals

[13:09] janette Inglewood: yes.....but first offence is the ear

[13:09] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:09] janette Inglewood: now then.....this is of course awkward on sl

[13:10] janette Inglewood: it requires the criminal basically to rp the sentence

[13:10] janette Inglewood: and how many people have you ever seen..rp'ing a removed limb?

[13:10] lacey Arentire: @

[13:10] janette Inglewood: Lacey?

[13:10] Sonja Zuta smiles

[13:11] lacey Arentire: i've seen one, he had a peg leg, one eye, and no hand, he was a very unque charactor

[13:11] Stefania Wildrose whispering, havent seen aby either

[13:11] janette Inglewood: splendid

[13:11] Stefania Wildrose: awful

[13:11] janette Inglewood: i had a pirate admit to an ear notch once

[13:12] lacey Arentire: he was very fun to be around, he rped very well

[13:12] Stefania Wildrose smiles amused

[13:12] janette Inglewood: but lets face it...however btb we wish to be...it doesnt work on sl

[13:12] Sonja Zuta smiles

[13:13] Syd Cicerone nods

[13:13] janette Inglewood: similairly, if you make a habit of banning people....your sim admin will soon lose patience with you when their traffic is down

[13:13] janette Inglewood: consequently.....we need to be imaginitive with sentencing

[13:14] janette Inglewood: incoming

[13:14] janette Inglewood: impalement works pretty well on sl mind you

[13:14] janette Inglewood: but that is really only for the big crimes

[13:15] janette Inglewood: and its the same with fines......cities use different coin systems.....it makes consistent fining pretty tricky

[13:16] janette Inglewood: i did a trial in Aestia a while back....and had to try to decipher their wage structure before i could fine the person

[13:17] janette Inglewood: so....ear notching, limb removal, permanent bans and fines are all actually quite difficult to utilise on sl

[13:17] janette Inglewood: whippings.....well the person doesnt actually feel the whip

[13:18] janette Inglewood: imprisonment..ends up being a really boring rp for all involved

[13:19] janette Inglewood: and so....you can see that one needs to be very creative with sentencing on sl....and yet retain a flavour of the books.

[13:19] Sonja Zuta: me smiles

[13:20] janette Inglewood: would somebody do me a favour and copy and paste the class so far for Hazzard and Kandyl please

[13:20] Jessie Sinister: yes

[13:21] janette Inglewood: i know sl is being a tarsk today

[13:22] janette Inglewood: now, with something like ear notching......i will still use it as a sentence

[13:22] janette Inglewood: i then record the name...and if i hear that person is in court again..i will share the information with the Magistrate

[13:23] janette Inglewood: i tend to know many of them......but it isnt a great system even then

[13:23] janette Inglewood: any questions so far?

[13:24] Carin McBride: @

[13:24] janette Inglewood: Carin?

[13:24] Carin McBride: how do you handel that you OOC know its the second time the man/woman is in court for theft, but when you rp it they plain out denie* it?

[13:25] janette Inglewood: well to be honest.....if i am sure they were already notched...then it isnt ooc

[13:26] janette Inglewood: but yes its a good point and again shows the problem we have with sl and btb sentencing

[13:26] Sonja Zuta nods

[13:26] janette Inglewood: lets look at some alternatives we hav

[13:27] janette Inglewood: now...the most obvious one is collaring

[13:27] janette Inglewood: this works pefectly well on sl

[13:27] Syd Cicerone: hahaha

[13:27] Sonja Zuta smiles

[13:28] janette Inglewood: however....remember we said before....sl has 50% of females in collars against a btb ratio of 3 -7%

[13:28] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:28] janette Inglewood: so just adding to that with gay abandon...doesnt help anyone

[13:28] janette Inglewood: Claudette?

[13:29] Claudette Debruyere: Men never accept a collar. Even for punishment

[13:29] Claudette Debruyere: And especially not from a woman

[13:29] Syd Cicerone: not so

[13:29] Syd Cicerone: some men do

[13:29] Carin McBride: 1 out of 20 maybe

[13:29] janette Inglewood: yes thats right..they love to announce that they would die first...but sadly seldom do

[13:29] Syd Cicerone: Tarl was enslaved himself

[13:29] janette Inglewood: lag is getting me

[13:29] Claudette Debruyere: Nods to Syd

[13:30] janette Inglewood: well some do............it is not a total problem....but it can be tricky

[13:30] Claudette Debruyere: My question is: What do you do, as a female magistrate. Man, I don't want the headache

[13:31] janette Inglewood: another thing that does work on sl...is the sense of humiliation....loss of honour

[13:32] janette Inglewood: a public whipping...whilst not inflicting actual pain....is nonetheless very harrowing for a proud free person

[13:33] janette Inglewood: i have considered public stocks for Olni also

[13:34] janette Inglewood: then there are temporary bans from the sim....i prefer to use them for rules infactions than for actual law breaks

[13:34] Claudette Debruyere: nods

[13:34] janette Inglewood: also...loss of rank...loss of Caste...priveleges

[13:34] Sonja Zuta nods

[13:34] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:35] janette Inglewood: and not going quite as far as a collar....public service......unpaid duties and such like

[13:35] janette Inglewood: Claudette?

[13:35] Jessie Sinister: @

[13:35] Sonja Zuta smiles

[13:35] Claudette Debruyere: How do you go about taking away rank? Isn't that within their caste?

[13:36] janette Inglewood: yes...You report the offence to the Caste head..and request the action

[13:36] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:36] Claudette Debruyere: Hopefully they will listen to you?

[13:36] Jessie Sinister puts his hand down

[13:37] janette Inglewood: if they wish a thief to still work among them...then ill try a different sentence

[13:37] janette Inglewood: but normally it can be agreed

[13:38] janette Inglewood: the pint i am making is...you need to find sentences that can be worked

[13:38] janette Inglewood: *point

[13:38] Jessie Sinister nods

[13:38] janette Inglewood: that relate to the offence...and have some semblance of btb about them

[13:38] Claudette Debruyere: OK

[13:38] Carin McBride nods

[13:39] janette Inglewood: here in Olni........i have the support and understanding of the council....and part of your job as Magistrates.......

[13:39] janette Inglewood: is most certainly to gain respect and support

[13:40] janette Inglewood: and this is not achieved by riding roughshod over everybody

[13:41] janette Inglewood: if i wish a Guard to be sentenced to 10 nights of gate duty...i would of course consult the Commander

[13:41] janette Inglewood: after all i will need His support in enforcing such a sentence

[13:42] Syd Cicerone nods

[13:43] janette Inglewood: now as You may or may not know...i am not afraid to sentence quite harshly...if so needed

[13:43] janette Inglewood: but...i balance that with an attempt to be creative...and find sentences that people will actually rp with

[13:44] janette Inglewood: if they have at least been honest enough to rp the trial..then it is only right that we respond with sentences that continue the rp

[13:45] janette Inglewood: the she-urt that got 2 weeks of cleaning the inn....became quite a feature for a hile

[13:45] janette Inglewood: *while

[13:45] janette Inglewood: much better than just collaring her to the city....another bad city girl

[13:45] Carin McBride nods

[13:46] janette Inglewood: now in the assignment i shall send out later....you will see the sentencing handed out by Bila

[13:47] janette Inglewood: although it is harsh....at times....and a little manic......it is a superb example of finding sentences that match the offence

[13:47] Jessie Sinister: agreed

[13:47] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:47] janette Inglewood: the man who lies about his taxes...being hanged by his tongue for example

[13:48] Claudette Debruyere: Whoa

[13:48] Stefania Wildrose touches her tongue

[13:48] Hazzard Ruby: "The next to appear before Bila Huruma were two members of the nobility, a man and his companion. He complained of her that she had been unwilling to please him. By one word and a stroke of his hand between them Bila Huruma dissolved their companionship. He then ordered that the man be put in the dress of a woman and beaten from the court with sticks. This was done. He then ordered that the woman be stripped and a vine leash be put on her neck. She was then sentenced to a barrack of askaris for a year, that she might learn how to please men."

~Explorers of Gor, page 231~

[13:48] Jessie Sinister nods, Bila was awesome

[13:48] Carin McBride checks her tax books quickly

[13:48] janette Inglewood: and i cant give you all the answers to how to sentence...it is an individual thing

[13:49] janette Inglewood: i can only urge you to think of what works...for your City....your rp'ers.....the morale....and yet shows that the law must be respected

[13:49] Stefania Wildrose: aw yes I read that sentence... astonishing

[13:50] Hazzard Ruby: Clever and funny.

[13:50] janette Inglewood: yes, and of course that example...also shows an FC contract being terminated

[13:50] Stefania Wildrose: yes, rpable

[13:50] Syd Cicerone: but being terminated with dire cost

[13:50] janette Inglewood: so..i urge you to think beyond the obvious when confronted with sentencing

[13:51] janette Inglewood: be aware of the constraints of sl....and of the fact that people can just walk away

[13:51] Claudette Debruyere: Agreed

[13:51] Kandyl Ghoststar nods

[13:51] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:52] Hazzard Ruby: If you make the sentence a RP opportunity though?

[13:52] janette Inglewood: and for many that are prepared to actually rp the trial....there is no point in then just banning a good rp'er from your city

[13:52] Hazzard Ruby: *nods

[13:53] janette Inglewood: yes. it can enrich everybody's rp

[13:54] janette Inglewood: of course....nasty...malicious crimes....are a little different

[13:54] janette Inglewood: i had someone here...who turned sides during a raid

[13:54] Syd Cicerone: o.O

[13:54] janette Inglewood: clearly seen by everyone to do it

[13:54] Stefania Wildrose: turned sides?

[13:54] janette Inglewood: and yes we killed Him and banned Him

[13:55] janette Inglewood: yes....once the raiders were inside...He joined them

[13:55] Carin McBride: @

[13:55] Kandyl Ghoststar: Treason

[13:55] Stefania Wildrose unloyalties do deserve death

[13:55] janette Inglewood: well yes...........but not even nice rp treason....all out nastiness

[13:55] janette Inglewood: Carin?

[13:56] Carin McBride: I just wondre why the ban.. I undestand the killing of the man, but not the banning unless its perm death on your sim

[13:57] Stefania Wildrose: unreliable rper

[13:57] Claudette Debruyere: He must have been exceptionally bad

[13:57] janette Inglewood: it would not have been permanent at the time

[13:57] janette Inglewood: death sentence here is now...but then it was 7 days i think

[13:57] Carin McBride: I mean we have spies all over cities.. would be unfair to ban them for doing what they are supose to

[13:57] janette Inglewood: so we didnt want Him back

[13:58] Claudette Debruyere: laughs at Carin

[13:58] Carin McBride smirks at widow

[13:58] Stefania Wildrose smiles

[13:58] janette Inglewood: well in this case...we took the view that He was unwanted

[13:59] janette Inglewood: this was a merc gang...not even a raid by an enemy

[13:59] janette Inglewood: we declared Him an outlaw and that was that

[13:59] Carin McBride nods

[14:00] janette Inglewood: had He been a spy for another city, then i see your point....sentence him to death for that

[14:00] janette Inglewood: right....any closing questions?

[14:01] Syd Cicerone: nay

[14:01] Carin McBride: no

[14:01] Claudette Debruyere: shakes my head

[14:01] Jessie Sinister remains silent

[14:01] Kandyl Ghoststar: nay

[14:01] janette Inglewood: so...i'll send out the class scroll as usual

[14:01] Stefania Wildrose shakesher head

[14:01] janette Inglewood: and then the coursework for next week

[14:01] janette Inglewood: thank you all for your attendance....and have a good week

[14:02] janette Inglewood: and see you advocates tomorrow

[14:02] Carin McBride: like wise Lady Jan

[14:02] Stefania Wildrose: yes lady

[14:02] lacey Arentire: thanks janette you too

[14:02] Stefania Wildrose: thank you

[14:02] Jessie Sinister: Thank you, Lady

[14:02] Syd Cicerone smiles

[14:02] lacey Arentire: i wish you all well

[14:02] Claudette Debruyere: Thank you Janette

[14:02] janette Inglewood: be well all

Magistrate class 4...5pm 3rd Jan 2011

  2011-01-04 02:08:50 note card

Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 4 (Homework Review & Trial Procedures)

Instructor: Janette Inglewood

Participants:

• Sherman Easterwood

• Dezire Sciarri

• Kylie Sabra

• Candaris Randt

Meeting Summary:

Janette Inglewood began the third Magistrates class by reviewing the previous homework assignment, which involved a scenario where a Free Woman was "feeding larma" to a Man they weren't FC'ed (Flesh-Caste'ed) with, and the Man subsequently collared her without a Magistrate present.

Homework Review Discussion:

• Offenses Committed: Janette stated that both the Free Woman (for acting in a slavish manner and open flirtation) and the Man (for collaring without a Magistrate) committed offenses. The Slaver in the scenario committed no offense.

• No Trial Needed: Given the clear events, Janette felt a formal trial wasn't necessary for this specific case.

• Appropriate Punishment: A collar was deemed appropriate for the Free Woman, but not necessarily permanent. Janette suggested collaring her to the city for a month, with release only if she and the Man then formally FC (Flesh-Caste). This solution was seen as "cute" and would also impact the Man, assuming he loved her.

• Participant Defenses/Opinions:

  • Sherman Easterwood: Proposed a defense arguing the "larma" feeding wasn't the traditional "honey-glazed" serving, and therefore not a complete "serving" act, to lessen the "slavish" behavior. Janette acknowledged it as a "worth a try" defense but still found the woman guilty due to her flirtatiousness.

  • Dezire Sciarri: Wondered if the Free Woman actually "sought" the collar given her suggestive actions, implying a city collar might be better than collaring her directly to the Man, especially if the city doesn't have city slaves (like Landa).

  • Candaris Randt: Pointed out that the specific quote provided by Dezire about larma feeding does not mention honey, supporting the idea that the "honey-glazed" argument might not be a valid defense based on that specific text. Candaris also argued that giving the woman to the Man would be a "reward" for him breaking the law (by collaring without a Magistrate) and that the punishment should affect him too, thus supporting the city collar option.

  • Kylie Sabra: Initially agreed with collaring her to the city, but then suggested she be collared directly to the Man, making it his choice to free or FC her, implying the Man didn't break a law by merely behaving as he wished.

• Man's Offense: Janette clarified a crucial point of Gorean law: a Free Woman can only be collared in her home city by due process of a Magistrate. A Man cannot simply collar a Free Woman in her home city unless she is captured outside of it or is a traveling Free Woman.

Trial Procedures Discussion:

• Biggest Practical Problem: The most significant challenge in holding a trial is finding a time when all involved parties (accused, accuser, witnesses, advocates) can be present. Janette advised OOC communication to coordinate schedules.

• Depositions: If attendance is impossible, written depositions, ideally witnessed by a scribe and sealed, can be used as evidence, though their authenticity must be ensured.

• Conducting the Trial:

  • No Fixed Structure in Books: Norman (the author) provides no specific examples of trial procedures, leaving it up to the Magistrate. Jurors are mentioned but not used by Janette, due to a reference about them being bribed.

  • Initial Ground Rules: Janette sets clear rules at the start: emotes are considered spoken, disruptions from the gallery lead to removal/arrest, all participants speak "for their Homestone" (lies are grievous), and all must agree to abide by the court's findings.

  • Trial Flow:

    1. Prosecution opening statement and charges.

    2. Defense opening statement.

    3. Prosecution calls witnesses (cross-examined by defense).

    4. Defense calls witnesses (cross-examined by prosecution).

    5. Closing statements (prosecution first).

    6. Judgment (Magistrate explains reasons).

• Tips for Advocates (and Magistrates): Do not annoy the Magistrate by preaching law, repeating, interrupting, or taking too long. Objections are allowed but must be worthwhile.

• Maintaining Control: Magistrates must maintain a firm hand, nip problems in the bud, and be prepared for unpopular decisions or disruptions (fights, threats) that should not sway the judgment.

• Jury System: Dezire asked about using a jury to deflect criticism. Janette suspected it would lead to a "never-ending trial" and preferred Magistrates to take criticism themselves, as she has never used or seen a jury used effectively in SL.

Next Steps:

• No homework for the current week.

• Next week's class will cover sentencing and how it works in SL.

• A piece of coursework will be assigned related to sentencing.

• A trial will be held later in the course to put concepts into practice.

• Janette will send out the transcript for this class.

- Summary: Kati Evans

==============================================================================

[17:05] janette Inglewood: id like to begin by discussing the homework assignment

[17:06] janette Inglewood: i had a variety of responses....every option you can imagine really

[17:07] janette Inglewood: so.....lets consider it

[17:07] janette Inglewood: You arrive on the scene

[17:07] janette Inglewood: the first considerations are of course......

[17:07] janette Inglewood: it is IC

[17:08] janette Inglewood: it is your jurisdiction

[17:08] janette Inglewood: there is a crime

[17:08] janette Inglewood: there are witnesses

[17:08] janette Inglewood: so conditions all point to you needing to make a judgement

[17:09] janette Inglewood: now..the Slaver has not committed an offence

[17:09] janette Inglewood: the fw has been feeding larma to the Man....and they are not FC'ed

[17:10] janette Inglewood: and we are told this isnt the first example

[17:10] janette Inglewood: however.....the Man should not be collaring anyone without the Magistrate present

[17:10] janette Inglewood: despite the Slaver waving a collar about

[17:11] Sherman Easterwood listens to explanation

[17:11] janette Inglewood: so.....both He and the fw have committed offences

[17:12] janette Inglewood: i dont really see the need for a trial here....we can see all the events quite clearly

[17:12] janette Inglewood: she has definately been acting in a slavish manner

[17:13] janette Inglewood: therefore....a collar is appropriate.....maybe not permanent

[17:13] janette Inglewood: and we assume the Man is in love with her

[17:14] janette Inglewood: so collaring her to thecity for amonth for example...would hurt Him too

[17:15] janette Inglewood: theere are many sentencing options really....my main point in this was seeing that you considered the right things

[17:15] janette Inglewood: we will look more closely at sentencing next week

[17:16] janette Inglewood: bit i rather like....collar her to he city for a month....then she may be released only if they FC

[17:16] janette Inglewood: and...that contract must be seen through

[17:17] janette Inglewood: its a rather cute solution.....but not the only one

[17:17] janette Inglewood: any thoughts or questions?

[17:17] Sherman Easterwood: @

[17:17] Dezire Sciarri: @

[17:17] janette Inglewood: Sherman?

[17:19] Sherman Easterwood: IAfter completing the assignment I started thinking as an advocate and thought if there was a trail maybe a defense though not a good one could be based on trying to show that the larma was not honey glazed and that the tradition was of a serving larma and that a serve was much more complicated that just feeding

[17:19] janette Inglewood: well yes........but she was still openly flirtatious

[17:20] Sherman Easterwood: the larma and therefore no serving of the larma actually took place ....

[17:20] janette Inglewood: yes......i dont think it would get her off...but it would be worth a try in a trial

[17:20] Sherman Easterwood: aye but the feeding was a simple placement of food in the mouth

[17:20] janette Inglewood: i think Your point in your essay of collaring her to him was pretty good

[17:21] Sherman Easterwood: only way I could think of defending her

[17:21] janette Inglewood: yes...not easy

[17:21] Sherman Easterwood: thank you

[17:21] janette Inglewood: you could also say they were to be fc'ed anyway as a defence

[17:22] janette Inglewood: but...i would find her guilty

[17:22] janette Inglewood: Dezire?

[17:23] Dezire Sciarri: I also wondered about it after I send in the home work, but differently then Sherman, I was wondring if she did not actually seek the collar, all her previous actions have been so suggestive

[17:23] Dezire Sciarri growls at Sherman

[17:24] Kylie Sabra: @

[17:24] janette Inglewood: yes it is possible.....thats why some time in a city collar may be appropriate

[17:24] janette Inglewood: she might think being collared to Marcus was a good thing

[17:24] Kylie Sabra: Lowers hand

[17:24] janette Inglewood: Kylie?

[17:24] Kylie Sabra: I changed my mind.

[17:24] janette Inglewood: oh...chuckles...did we cover it?

[17:24] Candaris Randt: @

[17:25] Kylie Sabra: Aii

[17:25] janette Inglewood: Candaris?

[17:25] Candaris Randt: I have a point about the larma and honey....

[17:25] Candaris Randt: this quote says nothing about honey, so its not a valid defense

[17:25] Candaris Randt: There is, first, the bondage knot. Most Gorean slave girls have long hair. The bondage knot is a simple looped knot tied in the girl's hair and worn at the side of her right cheek or before her right shoulder. The girl approaches the master naked and kneels, the bondage knot soft, curled, fallen at the side of her right cheek or before her right shoulder. Another device, common in Port Kar, is for the girl to kneel before the master and put her head down and lift her arms, offering him fruit, usually a larma, or a yellow Gorean peach, ripe and fresh. These devices, incidentally, may be used even by a slave girl who hates her master but whose body, trained to love, cannot endure the absence of the masculine caress.

~Tribesman of Gor, pages 27 & 28~

[17:25] janette Inglewood: yes Dezire used that quote in her answer

[17:26] Dezire Sciarri: thats why I wondered if she did not actually seek the collar

[17:26] Kylie Sabra: @

[17:27] janette Inglewood: yes

[17:27] Candaris Randt nods, oh I agree

[17:27] janette Inglewood: Kylie?

[17:27] Kylie Sabra: And given that she may have sought the collar....

[17:27] Kylie Sabra: And that he may indeed want her hence the flirting. To collar her to the city would hurt him as well...

[17:28] Kylie Sabra: I agree that sheshould have been collared to him and then it be his choice whether to free her and FC her.

[17:28] Dezire Sciarri: @

[17:28] Candaris Randt: @

[17:28] janette Inglewood: Dezire?

[17:29] Dezire Sciarri: not all cities have city slaves.. Landa for instance does not.. therefor if he collars her, she would be his slave

[17:29] janette Inglewood: i see

[17:29] Dezire Sciarri: or he could hand her to the slaver

[17:29] janette Inglewood: Candaris?

[17:29] Candaris Randt: He broke the law, the punishment should hurt him as well, in my opinion.

[17:29] Candaris Randt: Giving her to him, would be a reward for breaking the law.

[17:30] janette Inglewood: yes i agree, which is why id use the city option...if there is one

[17:30] Kylie Sabra: @

[17:30] janette Inglewood: anyway.....i think we all see the issues in this

[17:30] janette Inglewood: Kylie?

[17:30] Sherman Easterwood nods

[17:30] Kylie Sabra: Indeed. Did he break a law? A man may behave as he wishes...

[17:30] Dezire Sciarri smiles

[17:31] Kylie Sabra: Short of kiling another or stealing property. The onous is upon the female to behave.

[17:31] Kylie Sabra: Kind of like RL.

[17:31] janette Inglewood: no...btb...a Lady can only be collared in her Home city...by due process of a Magistrate

[17:31] Dezire Sciarri nods

[17:31] janette Inglewood: it is not up to amn just to go collaring FW

[17:32] janette Inglewood: *Man

[17:32] janette Inglewood: not legally anyway

[17:33] janette Inglewood: when capturing...in another city...or a travelling FW...THEN YES

[17:33] janette Inglewood: but in her own city....the books are clear

[17:34] janette Inglewood: any more queries on this?

[17:34] janette Inglewood: right then...lets move on

[17:35] janette Inglewood: i want to talk about trials

[17:36] janette Inglewood: now..lets assume we are having a trial..what the biggest problem we will have?

[17:36] Dezire Sciarri: @

[17:36] janette Inglewood: Dezire?

[17:37] Dezire Sciarri: we need to make sure all the witnesses have been questioned first

[17:37] janette Inglewood: yes...but what is the practical problem we will face?

[17:37] Kylie Sabra: @

[17:37] Kylie Sabra: Finding a time where all involved can appear.

[17:37] janette Inglewood: Kylie?

[17:38] janette Inglewood: exactly

[17:38] janette Inglewood: this is the big issue

[17:38] janette Inglewood: dont be afraid to talk to people ooc'ly and get a time that is going to work for everyone

[17:39] janette Inglewood: its never easy...hopefully they can make the effort....seeing the rp as fun

[17:39] janette Inglewood: ok...so lets say we find a time

[17:39] janette Inglewood: and..in an ideal world we have advocates

[17:40] Kylie Sabra: @

[17:40] janette Inglewood: oh by the way....you can always ask for advocates in my law groups

[17:40] janette Inglewood: Kylie?

[17:40] Kylie Sabra: Can we use depositions that have been taken and then use them in trial?

[17:41] janette Inglewood: yes if we have no choice

[17:41] janette Inglewood: obviously you need to sure you trust they are authentic

[17:41] janette Inglewood: but i agree...sometimes we have to

[17:41] Kylie Sabra: Generally depositions are witenssed. So perhaps before a scribe and then sealed with scribes seal.

[17:42] janette Inglewood: now..if you dont have advocates...you will be doing the questioning.....but lets assume you do

[17:42] janette Inglewood: yes Kylie. i agree

[17:42] janette Inglewood: the way you conduct the trial is really up to you

[17:43] janette Inglewood: Norman gives us no book example

[17:43] janette Inglewood: He does refer to jurors...but i dont use them

[17:43] janette Inglewood: the only ref he makes is about them being bribed

[17:44] janette Inglewood: i make itclear at the start how things will go

[17:44] janette Inglewood: and i mention these points.....

[17:44] janette Inglewood: all emotes are in effect spoken

[17:45] janette Inglewood: too many comments from the gallery and they will be removed...or even arrested

[17:45] janette Inglewood: that we are speaking for our Homestone....and as such..lies are a grievous crime

[17:46] janette Inglewood: and i usually check...all are willing to abide by the findngs of the court

[17:47] janette Inglewood: then i have the prosecution openening statement and charges

[17:47] janette Inglewood: and then the defence opening statement

[17:47] janette Inglewood: the prosecution can then begin calling witnesses....each one being cross examined by defence

[17:48] janette Inglewood: then the defence...who may call witnesses not already called...and they can be cross examined of course

[17:48] janette Inglewood: then closing statements...prosecution first

[17:49] janette Inglewood: and finally the judgement

[17:49] janette Inglewood: i try to explain my reasons.....and make it understandable

[17:49] janette Inglewood: and i thank all who took part

[17:50] janette Inglewood: as i always preach on the advocates course....do not annoy the Magistrate

[17:50] janette Inglewood: dont preach law at me...dont keep repeating yourself...or interrupting

[17:51] janette Inglewood: dont take ages....it takes long enough as it is

[17:51] janette Inglewood: yes you can make an objection....but makes sure it is worthwhile

[17:52] Kylie Sabra: Whispers. "I have to leave to officiate FC ceremony."

[17:52] janette Inglewood: i can get very grumpy with a smart-ass advocate

[17:52] janette Inglewood: ooh im going to attend that

[17:53] janette Inglewood: and finally...it is your court...keep a firm hand on it

[17:54] janette Inglewood: things can quickly get out of hand...so nip it in the bud

[17:54] janette Inglewood: you may be making an unpopular decision

[17:54] janette Inglewood: ive seen fights erupt...and thereats to me and all sorts

[17:55] janette Inglewood: it wont sway me though...i call it as i see it

[17:55] janette Inglewood: it is our duty to do that

[17:55] janette Inglewood: any questions about trial procedures?

[17:56] Dezire Sciarri: @

[17:56] janette Inglewood: we will be doing one later in the course

[17:56] janette Inglewood: Dezire?

[17:56] Dezire Sciarri: if you chose a jury, could that defer the griping? or would it only be a never ending trial?

[17:57] janette Inglewood: personally i suspect the latter

[17:57] Dezire Sciarri nods.. "thank you, I thought so"

[17:57] janette Inglewood: i think it is better to take the criticism yourself...as i said i have never actually done it....nor seen it done

[17:58] janette Inglewood: now then...no homework this week

[17:58] janette Inglewood: next week the class is on sentencing and how that works on sl

[17:59] janette Inglewood: there is a piece of coursework on that

[17:59] janette Inglewood: then we shallhold a trial.....and put a few things into practice

[18:00] janette Inglewood: incredibly we are lready half way through

[18:00] janette Inglewood: thank You for You input..and be well til next time

[18:00] janette Inglewood: oh and happy new year

[18:01] janette Inglewood: ill send the scroll out in group for this class as usuaul

[18:01] Candaris Randt: Thank you, you too Lady Jan. Be well all.

[18:01] Dezire Sciarri smiles... Happy New Year Lady Janette.. and thank you .

[18:01] janette Inglewood: be well all

[18:01] Sherman Easterwood: Happy new year thank you I must run

[18:01] Sherman Easterwood: safe paths all

[18:01] Dezire Sciarri: be well and be safe..

[18:01] Dezire Sciarri: excuse us please..

[18:02] janette Inglewood: You too

Magistrate class 2..5pm March 14th

  2011-03-15 01:07:32 note card

Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 2 (OOC/IC Distinction)

Instructor: Janette Inglewood

Participants:

• Roi Bingyi

• Wicked Vintner

• Wanaki Anton

• Devon Slacker (joined late)

Meeting Summary:

Janette Inglewood led the second Magistrates class, focusing on the crucial distinction between Out Of Character (OOC) and In Character (IC) elements within the context of Second Life (SL) Gorean roleplay. She highlighted that this distinction, while an SL-specific issue, is vital for proper legal proceedings.

Key Points and Discussions:

• Rules vs. Laws: In well-organized sims, OOC issues (like griefing) are handled by moderators based on sim rules, while IC issues (like murder) are dealt with by Magistrates based on Gorean laws. Janette, holding both roles in Olni, finds this dual responsibility helpful.

• Identifying OOC Elements: Participants identified common OOC elements that can muddle IC cases:

  • Information from profiles (groups, picks, comments)

  • Private Instant Messages (IMs)

  • Taking pictures during IC scenes (can be OOC)

  • Name tags and meter labels (unless explicitly stated IC)

  • Group tags

  • Teleporting in or out of scenes inappropriately

• OOC Motives and Backstories: Janette warned about OOC motives or backstories (often involving "spurned lovers" or past grievances from other platforms like IMVU) that can drive IC actions. While hard to prove, Magistrates must be aware of and try to eliminate these OOC influences.

• Chat Logs as Evidence: Open chat logs can be useful in investigations as they represent shared conversations, but they are generally not allowed as court evidence due to the possibility of alteration and the lack of IC means to verify their accuracy. Witness testimony given in person is considered far more valid.

• Pictures on Warrants: Janette occasionally allows a "picture" (like an artist's sketch) on a warrant if a witness provides a strong, credible IC description of a suspect. However, a direct picture of the crime being committed is invalid.

• Case Example: Panther-Girl Robbery: A scenario involving a slave reporting a "panther-girl called Elsa" robbing a Free Woman demonstrated the need to question witnesses rigorously to establish IC facts. Elements like the "tribe name," "location," and even the "panther-girl" identity or the "rings" could be OOC assumptions based on tags.

• Treason Case Example: Janette shared a personal case where a Free Woman was accused of treason by Warriors she had rescued, possibly due to their embarrassment. She emphasized the importance of examining the motive for any OOC reasons, concluding that the Warrior's "ashamedness" was an IC motive, allowing the case to be treated seriously and resulting in the woman's acquittal.

• Handling OOC Testimony in Trials: If OOC facts are presented as testimony in court, Magistrates should explicitly state that the comment is "struck from the records." Repeated OOC testimony warrants dismissal from the stand.

• RP Limits: This "tricky area" refers to OOC stipulations players set (e.g., "no capping," "no unnecessary death," or explicit sexual content). While OOC, Janette suggested a common-sense approach:

  • Ludicrous limits that contradict Gorean RP (like "no capping") indicate the player is in the wrong sim.

  • For sensitive content, players can "fade to black" (accepting it happened to their character without actively roleplaying the explicit details) without pressure. Magistrates should respect these choices and accept that the event occurred IC.

The class ended with Janette reminding participants about the Advocates class the following day and the next Magistrates class next week, promising homework for the next session.

- Summary: Kati Evans

==========================================================================

[17:04] janette Inglewood: Tal All....welcome to the second Magistrate class

[17:05] janette Inglewood: today i want to talk about that old chestnut.....OOC/IC

[17:06] janette Inglewood: of course it is a Sl issue rather than gorean.....but it is wery important to be aware of

[17:06] Roi Bingyi nods

[17:06] janette Inglewood: in a well organised Sim .....rules are ooc and laws are ic

[17:07] janette Inglewood: so.....griefing is ooc....murder is ic

[17:08] janette Inglewood: here in Olni im a moderator so i deal with ooc issues in that role and of course ic laws as a Magistrate

[17:08] janette Inglewood: it is handy to have both roles

[17:08] janette Inglewood: sadly too many good ic cases get clouded with ooc nonsense

[17:09] janette Inglewood: can you tell me some obvious ooc things?

[17:09] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:10] Wanaki Anton: @

[17:10] janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[17:10] Wicked Vintner: anything in their profile could be

[17:10] janette Inglewood: yes.....groups...picks.....comments

[17:10] janette Inglewood: Elena?

[17:10] Wanaki Anton: Private IM

[17:10] janette Inglewood: yes

[17:11] janette Inglewood: any more?

[17:11] Wanaki Anton: @

[17:11] janette Inglewood: Elena?

[17:11] Wanaki Anton: like taking picture during IC

[17:11] janette Inglewood: it can be

[17:12] Roi Bingyi: @

[17:12] janette Inglewood: other ones...are name tags....

[17:12] janette Inglewood: Roi?

[17:12] Roi Bingyi: Teleporting when you are not at the proper location in or out

[17:12] janette Inglewood: yes

[17:13] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:13] janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[17:13] Wicked Vintner: name tags can be OOC but in the case of me, for instance, my OOC name is my IC name. So unless I have told them, its OOC as well

[17:14] janette Inglewood: well yes...but just reading them and then assuming you know the name is ooc

[17:14] janette Inglewood: also meter labels

[17:14] janette Inglewood: group tags

[17:14] janette Inglewood: unless i say...Tal i am Janette, High Magistrate of Olni...then You shouldnt know it

[17:15] janette Inglewood: there can also be ooc motives in a crime

[17:15] janette Inglewood: or the back story is ooc

[17:16] janette Inglewood: nearly always involving a spurned lover

[17:16] janette Inglewood: i did a case once that actually started on imvu Gor apparently

[17:17] Wanaki Anton: 0,o

[17:17] Wicked Vintner: interesting

[17:17] janette Inglewood: where she left and came to sl.....and he followed and found her

[17:17] janette Inglewood: i really wasnt sure if that was ooc or not

[17:17] Roi Bingyi: Stalking

[17:17] Wanaki Anton: roll her eyes

[17:18] janette Inglewood: so anyway....you need to be very aware and careful of it

[17:18] janette Inglewood: evidence that is ooc...could lead to the defendent or defence council calling a mistrial

[17:19] janette Inglewood: chat logs are by and large ooc......but...if they are of open chat....they can be very useful

[17:20] Wanaki Anton: nods

[17:20] janette Inglewood: after all....they can constitute a shared conversation

[17:20] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:20] janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[17:21] Wicked Vintner: true, but how can one come up with a reason for a perfectly accurate word for word account of somethign that was said. And how can you be sure it wasnt altered

[17:21] janette Inglewood: well your second point first.....you cannot be sure

[17:21] janette Inglewood: i have seen very dodgy ones

[17:21] janette Inglewood: you can check them closely...but some people are very sneaky

[17:22] janette Inglewood: they are most useful when you have more than one of the same incident

[17:23] janette Inglewood: regarding your first point...i would not allow them as court evidence

[17:23] janette Inglewood: they are handy in an investigation...no more than that

[17:23] janette Inglewood: not a reason to convict

[17:24] janette Inglewood: certainly..the testimony of a witness to you in person is far more valid

[17:25] janette Inglewood: and.....if they give you a good description of the person.....and it is credible that they could have had a good view of the suspect.....i will occasionally use a picture on a warrant

[17:26] janette Inglewood: again.....handled with care

[17:26] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:26] janette Inglewood: a picture of them doing the crime is most certainly invalid

[17:26] janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[17:26] Wicked Vintner: would a artist be called to take the decription and do up a sketch?

[17:26] janette Inglewood: yes

[17:27] janette Inglewood: if there was a really stong precedent for them being able to describe the person

[17:27] Wicked Vintner: nice

[17:29] janette Inglewood: alright so....a slave comes to you and says she just saw a panther-girl called elsa attack a fw.....the girls robbed her of her rings and fled back to her tribe....the ka-kitty.....who live in the ka forest

[17:30] janette Inglewood: what of that is most likely ooc?

[17:30] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:30] janette Inglewood: Wicked

[17:30] Wicked Vintner: that they fled back to their tribe... and the name of that tribe and where they live

[17:30] janette Inglewood: yes indeed most likely to be ooc

[17:31] janette Inglewood: maybe the panther girl's name also

[17:31] janette Inglewood: maybe even that she took rings

[17:31] Wicked Vintner: or was even a panther

[17:32] janette Inglewood: you have to question the witness.....yes indeed.....and establish all of this ic'ly

[17:32] janette Inglewood: and ask how they know each fact

[17:32] janette Inglewood: not only for the sake of good rp...but also for the sake of a correct case

[17:33] janette Inglewood: sl throws up many things ooc'ly

[17:33] janette Inglewood: any questions?

[17:33] Wanaki Anton: no

[17:33] Roi Bingyi: Nay

[17:35] janette Inglewood: as i said with the imvu carry over.....you need to check the motive is also ic

[17:35] janette Inglewood: or at least eliminate the ooc parts

[17:35] janette Inglewood: i just had a treason case here

[17:36] janette Inglewood: and i knew why the charge had been levelled

[17:36] janette Inglewood: basically a fw rescued some Warriors

[17:36] janette Inglewood lowers her voice

[17:36] janette Inglewood: and they were embarrassed about it

[17:37] janette Inglewood: next thing one of them accuses the woman of treason for getting them caught in the first place

[17:37] janette Inglewood: before i ruled on it.....i looked very closely for any ooc reason for that man to make such a claim

[17:38] janette Inglewood: after all motive is the key to most crime

[17:39] janette Inglewood: i concluded it was their ashamedness...rather than any previous ooc nonsense

[17:39] janette Inglewood: so i treated the case seriously

[17:39] janette Inglewood: and found the woman innocent

[17:40] janette Inglewood: with regard to trials themselves.....if an ooc fact is given as testimony....clearly state that the comment be struck fromthe records

[17:41] janette Inglewood: and if someone keeps doing it...then you will have to tell them that this is not worthwhile testimony and to leave the stand

[17:42] janette Inglewood: the final subject to consider is rp limits

[17:42] janette Inglewood: now this is a tricky area

[17:43] janette Inglewood: anyone have rp limits here?

[17:43] Wanaki Anton: nods

[17:43] Devon Slacker: no

[17:43] Roi Bingyi: Just keep it realistic

[17:43] janette Inglewood: yes...mine is no non rp/unecessary death

[17:44] janette Inglewood: but i would also include the grossest sexual things which i find not necessary to state

[17:44] janette Inglewood: rape on Gor of course happens....fair enough

[17:45] janette Inglewood: so...how a sim...or you as a Magistrate treat these limits requires common sense

[17:45] janette Inglewood: i have seen ludicrous ones......no capping.....sort of thing

[17:46] janette Inglewood: well frankly why are you in Gor then

[17:47] janette Inglewood: since these are ooc......they need to be treated as such.....but if someone tp's out of something gross..and they have stated why...and said it is in theor limits....then fair enough i say

[17:47] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:47] janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[17:48] Wicked Vintner: they could also just "fade to black" and not participate in the situation, without having to say it enver happened. Its an option at least

[17:48] janette Inglewood: yes i agree.....and i think that is prefectly reasonable

[17:48] Roi Bingyi: @

[17:48] janette Inglewood: you accept it happened to your character without actually participating

[17:49] janette Inglewood: Roi?

[17:49] Roi Bingyi: As far as rape is concerned it can be RPed, "I rapped this person" is sufficient without going through the motions

[17:50] janette Inglewood: yes i agree

[17:50] janette Inglewood: and i think that in any ic case...this should just be accepted as having occoured

[17:50] Roi Bingyi: Aye

[17:51] janette Inglewood: that should be a chioce and no pressure put on

[17:51] janette Inglewood: once i was capped and carried over the wall

[17:51] janette Inglewood: my captor was lovely.....chuckles

[17:52] janette Inglewood: i was thinking hmmmm,,,,,i wonder what is going to happen

[17:52] Roi Bingyi chuckles

[17:52] janette Inglewood: and trying to decide what my stance would be

[17:52] janette Inglewood: i ended up in a hideous bloodstained wagon

[17:53] janette Inglewood: and was feeling disappointed that it was going to be yukky and id have to "fade to black"

[17:53] janette Inglewood: when the whole thing got invalidated....and they said...go home

[17:54] janette Inglewood: its the nearest i have come to such a situation....luckily

[17:54] janette Inglewood: but it taught me you have to respect the right of the victim...but that they in turn must rp it through

[17:55] janette Inglewood: and i think the Magistrate must respect this

[17:55] Wicked Vintner: @

[17:55] janette Inglewood: right...i think that covers the issue....any questions?

[17:55] Roi Bingyi: @

[17:55] janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[17:57] Wicked Vintner: just a wuick one about differeing laws. I came qacross a situation where a personal matter between two men escalated and they were attacking each other. Though it was outside city walls. At one point does a personal issue get tossed aside for them to handle themselves?

[17:57] janette Inglewood: was the personal issue ic?

[17:57] Wicked Vintner: yes

[17:57] Wicked Vintner: one mane.....

[17:58] Wicked Vintner: went poking around in a tortureres camp and got attacked. ......

[17:58] Wicked Vintner: he got upset that a man he had met once before didnt just let him walk around exploring

[17:58] Wicked Vintner: he retaliated by burning the wagon down days later

[17:58] janette Inglewood: yes...that sounds like it is best settled by steel

[17:59] Wicked Vintner: Then I was perfectly fine telling the Regent of the city it wasnt her concern

[17:59] janette Inglewood: yes id agree with that

[18:00] Roi Bingyi: I have one concerning the laws that you referred to us to read: 118. It is illegal for slaves to touch or handle legal documents. We do know that luma (I think that was her name) when she was a slave handled Bosks' records! And also why would there be slave Scribes if they cannot handle legal documents?

[18:00] janette Inglewood: Roi?

[18:00] janette Inglewood: yes well....this is a law extrapolated from the books by Luther

[18:01] Roi Bingyi grins ... "He missed on that one"

[18:01] janette Inglewood: Norman does contradict Himself

[18:01] Roi Bingyi: True

[18:02] janette Inglewood: i can only assume that a slave who is trusted can be given the role of handling documents of a certain level of legality

[18:02] Roi Bingyi: Agreed

[18:02] janette Inglewood: of course.....city lists are legal docs really...and loads of scribe slaves handle those

[18:03] Wanaki Anton: nods

[18:03] janette Inglewood: alright then....thank You very much for attending and contributing

[18:03] janette Inglewood: a small but select group

[18:03] Wicked Vintner: and thank you lady

[18:03] Wanaki Anton: smiles , thank you lady for your time

[18:03] Roi Bingyi: Any assignments for next week?

[18:03] janette Inglewood: advocates tomorrow at 1pm

[18:04] janette Inglewood: no..there will be homework from next class though

[18:04] Devon Slacker: again a transcript will be sent right?

[18:04] janette Inglewood: yes it will

[18:04] Devon Slacker: ok great

[18:04] Roi Bingyi: Thank you, Lady Janette

[18:05] janette Inglewood: thank You all see you next week or tomorrow

[18:05] Wicked Vintner: tomorrow it is

[18:05] Wanaki Anton: nods

[18:05] Wanaki Anton: hope to come tomorrow

[18:05] Devon Slacker: Be well

[18:05] janette Inglewood: be well all

[18:05] Roi Bingyi: Be Well All

[18:05] Wanaki Anton: be well

[18:06] Wicked Vintner: I wish you well Ladies

Magistrate class 2 (1pm) 20th Dec

  2010-12-20 22:09:43 note card

Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 2 (OOC/IC Distinction)

Instructor: Janette Inglewood

Participants:

• Hazzard Ruby

• Jethro Button

• Carin McBride

• Kandyl Ghoststar

• Lacey Arentire

• Stefania Wildrose

• Syd Cicerone

• Claudette Debruyere

• Georgia Beorn

• Tommy273 Beresford

• Loki Greymoon (joined late)

• Carissima Denver (joined late)

Meeting Summary:

Janette Inglewood opened the second class of the Magistrates course, discussing a potential class break for the following week due to holidays, but ultimately deciding to proceed as scheduled.

The main topic for this session was the "thorny issue" of OOC (Out Of Character) vs. IC (In Character) distinctions, especially as they apply to Second Life (SL) Gor roleplay and legal proceedings.

Key Concepts and Discussions:

• Laws are IC, Rules are OOC: Janette explained that Gorean laws are IC and are handled by Magistrates, while sim (simulation) rules are OOC and managed by moderators. She noted that in Olni, she acts as both, allowing her to handle issues more comprehensively.

• Excluding OOC Matters in Legal Proceedings: It was emphasized that all OOC information is inadmissible in IC court and Gorean law.

• Examples of OOC Elements: Participants identified various OOC elements:

  • Group and meter tags

  • Profile information

  • Unloaded gowns/veils (SL glitches)

  • Radar/mini-map

  • SL glitches and personal drama

  • Instant Message (IM) information

  • Real-life (RL) personality conflicts spilling into IC actions (e.g., a warrior collaring a Free Woman due to personal dislike)

  • Player names

• Gathering IC Information: The best way to gather information for a case is through IC means, primarily witness testimony.

• Personal Drama and "Grudge Aspect": Janette highlighted that personal drama is the most difficult OOC element to weed out. She noted that spurned lovers or OOC grudges can lead to "daft RP revenge" and attempts to create IC "disobedience issues" from OOC refusals (e.g., a slave refusing to go to voice chat, then accused of IC disobedience). She stated that strong sim leadership and moderators should handle such OOC rule breaks, often through bans.

• "RP Limits" in Profiles: The class discussed profile information or "RP limits" written as IC stipulations (e.g., "slave cannot be punished"). Janette clarified that these are OOC and would not be considered in an IC trial. The sim's rules and IC laws are what count. If a player has restrictions (like "don't whip me"), it indicates they are in the wrong place for Gorean roleplay.

• Case Example: Pirate Robbery and Warrants: The discussion moved to a scenario where a victim reports a robbery by "Bill Pirate." Janette stressed the need for IC evidence before issuing a warrant:

  • How is the pirate's name known (not just a tag)?

  • Was the pirate identity confirmed IC (e.g., by words, attire)?

  • Were there witnesses?

  • Where and when did the crime occur (jurisdiction)?

  • Acting on OOC information destroys the roleplay.

• Role of Advocates vs. Magistrates: A participant asked if investigation was solely for Advocates. Janette clarified that while Advocates do research, Magistrates, especially those "first on the scene," often need to gather initial IC information quickly to avoid losing witnesses or evidence, even if they later assign it to an investigation.

• Pictures/Sketches as Evidence: Janette introduced a controversial point: she allows pictures of events as a "guide," not direct evidence. A victim could make an IC sketch to depict the criminal's features or the scene's layout, requiring common sense in interpretation.

• Handling Witnesses: Janette emphasized the importance of treating witnesses well, involving them, and ensuring they feel safe.

The class concluded with thanks and a reminder about the Advocates class the following day and the next Magistrates class the following week.

- Summary: Kati Evans

=======================================================================

[13:03] janette Inglewood: Tal Everyone........as usual the class is a safe zone....so in the interests of lag You can remove meters

[13:04] janette Inglewood: Welcome to class 2 of the Magistrates course

[13:04] Hazzard Ruby smiles

[13:04] janette Inglewood: missing about 3 due to holidays

[13:05] Jethro Button: Sorry for missing the first

[13:05] Hazzard Ruby: Sorry too.

[13:05] janette Inglewood: should we have next week off and resume the monday after?

[13:05] Carin McBride: me three

[13:05] Kandyl Ghoststar: I am sorry aswell

[13:05] lacey Arentire: yes, i too missed the first but sonja gave me notes and i have read through them

[13:05] Stefania Wildrose: Tal all

[13:06] Jethro Button: Next Monday is good

[13:06] janette Inglewood: i, fine with next week

[13:06] Tommy273 Beresford thinks next week will be difficult to attend for a few.

[13:06] Syd Cicerone: Tal Stef....all u missed so far is to remover meeter

[13:06] janette Inglewood: so class as normal then?

[13:06] Hazzard Ruby: I can have a weeks break.

[13:06] Hazzard Ruby: Okies.

[13:07] lacey Arentire: i could probably do next week, but if othrs cannot it sounds like a good idea

[13:07] janette Inglewood: right....lets say class is on then

[13:07] Kandyl Ghoststar: i can do next week

[13:07] Claudette Debruyere: OK

[13:07] Hazzard Ruby: Hands up for next week off?

[13:07] Hazzard Ruby: @

[13:07] Tommy273 Beresford smiles.

[13:08] Stefania Wildrose: next monday, i think i can too

[13:08] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:08] Carin McBride: I can for sure

[13:08] Georgia Beorn: i can

[13:08] Syd Cicerone: I can

[13:08] Jethro Button: I can

[13:08] janette Inglewood: yes.....i think we shall have it

[13:08] Claudette Debruyere: I can

[13:08] Tommy273 Beresford nods...me too

[13:08] janette Inglewood: christmas will be over

[13:08] Hazzard Ruby: I can make it if needs be too.

[13:09] janette Inglewood: right then...to business

[13:09] Hazzard Ruby: brb

[13:09] janette Inglewood: today....the thorny issue that is OOC/IC

[13:09] janette Inglewood: OUT OF CHARACTER...IN CHARACTER

[13:10] janette Inglewood: now of cpurse this is entirely sl related

[13:10] Hazzard Ruby: ((Back))

[13:10] janette Inglewood: and can get very complicated

[13:11] janette Inglewood: the way i work it with Cities is to say...Laws are IC and rules are OOC

[13:11] janette Inglewood: rules are dealt with by moderators.......laws by Magistrates

[13:11] janette Inglewood: here in Olni i am also a Mod

[13:12] janette Inglewood: and i write the laws and the rules

[13:12] janette Inglewood: this does mean i can deal with issues by myself.....but when talking legally...we must exclude ALL OOC matters

[13:13] janette Inglewood: can You give me some obvious ooc things that surround us?

[13:13] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:13] janette Inglewood: Widow?

[13:13] Jethro Button: @

[13:14] Claudette Debruyere: Personality conflicts spilling into IC attacks. For example the warrior doesn't like the Free Woman so he collars her

[13:14] janette Inglewood: yes

[13:14] janette Inglewood: Jethro?

[13:14] Jethro Button: group and meter tags

[13:14] janette Inglewood: yes

[13:14] lacey Arentire: @

[13:14] Syd Cicerone: profile info

[13:15] janette Inglewood: Lacey?

[13:15] lacey Arentire: unloaded gowns (sl hates me )

[13:15] Jethro Button: @

[13:15] Tommy273 Beresford: All IM's

[13:15] Carin McBride grins softly

[13:15] janette Inglewood: yes and veils of course

[13:16] Jethro Button: radar, mini-map etc

[13:16] janette Inglewood: yes Jethro

[13:16] janette Inglewood: and of course names

[13:17] janette Inglewood: so...group tags meter tags name tags profiles groups

[13:17] janette Inglewood: sl glitches and personal drama

[13:17] janette Inglewood: and IM information

[13:17] janette Inglewood: all of them OOC,,,,,well done

[13:18] janette Inglewood: mapping tends to be more a raid thing....but equally ooc

[13:18] janette Inglewood: all of these are inadmissable in terms of court and ic gorean laws

[13:18] Hazzard Ruby: I have seen In Character Maps.

[13:19] janette Inglewood: the info has to be gathered in an ic manner

[13:19] Hazzard Ruby: Yes.

[13:19] janette Inglewood: the best wy for that is usally witness testimnoy

[13:20] janette Inglewood: and the worst one to weed out is the personal drama.......grudge aspect

[13:20] janette Inglewood: it is of course just poor rp and not worthy of everyone's time

[13:21] janette Inglewood: it doesnt always mean that a case cannot go forward, but it will cloud the entire rp

[13:22] janette Inglewood: and the biggest cause of such ooc drama is of course the relationship between Men and Women

[13:22] Jethro Button chuckles

[13:22] Carin McBride smirsk "we wondre why"

[13:22] janette Inglewood: the spurned lover coming up with some daft rp revenge

[13:22] Stefania Wildrose smiles

[13:22] Hazzard Ruby: One problem I have is detecting clever RP and distinguishing it from someone being a muppet.

[13:23] Hazzard Ruby: Sorry @

[13:23] janette Inglewood: yes Hazzard...it gets very tricky

[13:23] Jethro Button nods sagely

[13:23] janette Inglewood: now i have lived in Olni for over an Earth year...and i know most people...and with whom they have had affairs

[13:24] Tommy273 Beresford smiles...

[13:24] janette Inglewood: consequently i have a chance of spotting it

[13:24] janette Inglewood: but still it is a real challenge

[13:24] janette Inglewood: being a Mod also...i can turn it into a rules issue if i need to

[13:25] janette Inglewood: griefing slaves to voice and cam for example

[13:25] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:25] janette Inglewood: they refuse, next thing we have some so called ic disobedience issue

[13:26] janette Inglewood: yes Widow?

[13:26] Claudette Debruyere: What's that mean 'friefing slaves to voice'?

[13:26] Claudette Debruyere: griefing

[13:26] janette Inglewood: hassling girls to go to voice...usually sexually

[13:26] Loki Greymoon: smiles remembering

[13:26] Claudette Debruyere: Ahh

[13:26] Hazzard Ruby: Ugh.

[13:26] Stefania Wildrose: @

[13:27] janette Inglewood: Stefania?

[13:27] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:27] Stefania Wildrose: isn't voice related to personal rl

[13:27] janette Inglewood: exactly

[13:27] Kandyl Ghoststar: @

[13:27] Stefania Wildrose: how can they oblige

[13:28] janette Inglewood: it is a rules break...not a gorean law issue

[13:28] Stefania Wildrose: yes

[13:28] Carin McBride: @

[13:28] janette Inglewood: but....there can then be a so called legal claim made...out of spite at thr refusal

[13:28] janette Inglewood: Widow?

[13:29] Claudette Debruyere: Along that line blurring RL into SLife, rules versus law, how do you moderate that or is that at a later class?

[13:30] janette Inglewood: we are dealing with t now

[13:30] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:30] janette Inglewood: Kandyl?

[13:30] Kandyl Ghoststar: wouldnt griefing like that not be gorean and also be against SL TOS?

[13:30] Claudette Debruyere: what Kandyl said

[13:30] janette Inglewood: yes....ummm im not raising it to debate how we deal with it...more as an example of what goes on

[13:31] janette Inglewood: Carin?

[13:32] Carin McBride: well it was more an answer to why the voice could be an issue for Us, IC.. when the girl says no the man at timestakes it out on the girl in rp, this leads to issues maybe from the girls owner and so on That is how I see the issue will infect Us

[13:32] janette Inglewood: exactly

[13:32] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:32] janette Inglewood: knowing it is a rules...and a Linden rule break........they can turn it into a revengeful legal issue

[13:33] Hazzard Ruby: To me that is weakness in a Master.

[13:33] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:33] janette Inglewood: as i say....im a Mod...and i ban the person...end of story

[13:33] janette Inglewood: Widow?

[13:33] Claudette Debruyere: Ah, you answered my question

[13:34] janette Inglewood: yes....it is up to strong sim leadership...in a rules sense to stop such nonsense...and i agree with all comments

[13:34] janette Inglewood: but we see it then get moved into rp....and this is my main point

[13:35] Hazzard Ruby: @

[13:35] janette Inglewood: of course any Free can punish any slave....for anything

[13:35] janette Inglewood: but it must be IC reasons

[13:35] janette Inglewood: Hazzard?

[13:35] Carin McBride nods in agreement

[13:35] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:35] Syd Cicerone: @

[13:36] Hazzard Ruby: I wonder are there any basic RP courses......I see many not getting evenbasic concepts.

[13:36] Jethro Button: GUS has them

[13:37] janette Inglewood: personally i am very wary of rp courses....its hard to really define what is right or wrong......the main thing to do is read the rules....if they are being broken...report it

[13:37] janette Inglewood: Syd?

[13:37] Hazzard Ruby: kk

[13:37] Syd Cicerone: How do you handle "RP Limits" written in character in the pics section that stipulate that "slave can not be punished" ect. Would that be considered OOC cause it's in the profile....or IC because it could be theoreticly carried in slave papers?

[13:37] janette Inglewood: its ooc

[13:37] Claudette Debruyere: laughs

[13:38] Carin McBride: @

[13:38] janette Inglewood: i would not consider it in an ic trial in any way

[13:38] Syd Cicerone: k

[13:38] janette Inglewood: the rules of the sim...and the laws, they are what counts

[13:39] janette Inglewood: if someone tp's out of a scene because it gets sick....and i mean underage stuff for example....

[13:39] janette Inglewood: then of course they are supported by the sim

[13:39] janette Inglewood: and hopefully they send a log to the Mods for that

[13:40] janette Inglewood: if their retriction..is im a slave dont whip me...then they are in the wrong place and i would suggest they go elsewhere

[13:40] janette Inglewood: Carin?

[13:41] Carin McBride: meny cities have started to write down some of this silly limits .. just stating if you have this and this, we wont accept the limit due to it being ungorean

[13:42] janette Inglewood: yes....that may be a good way to go

[13:42] janette Inglewood: but good city rules cover it anyway

[13:42] Carin McBride nods

[13:42] janette Inglewood: now lets say there is a robbery

[13:43] janette Inglewood: a pirate......robs someone and flees

[13:43] janette Inglewood: the victim comes to us and says....bill pirate robbed me

[13:43] janette Inglewood: heres is the log

[13:44] janette Inglewood: what must we consider if we wish to issue a warrant?

[13:44] Jethro Button: @

[13:44] Hazzard Ruby: @

[13:44] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:44] Jethro Button: City law limits

[13:44] janette Inglewood: Jethro?

[13:44] janette Inglewood: Hazzard?

[13:45] Carin McBride: @

[13:45] Hazzard Ruby: I am thinking the extent of IC info Known.....how does he know its bill the pirate?

[13:45] janette Inglewood: exactly

[13:46] Kandyl Ghoststar: @

[13:46] janette Inglewood: Widow?

[13:46] Claudette Debruyere: He's a pirate isn't that what they do?

[13:46] janette Inglewood: Carin?

[13:46] Carin McBride grins

[13:47] Stefania Wildrose smiles nodding

[13:47] Carin McBride: well like Hazzard said.. get IC infomation and not a NC, have them tell what happend give a description of the man and so on

[13:47] janette Inglewood: Kandyl?

[13:47] Kandyl Ghoststar: what time the crime happened and if any witnesses were present at that time

[13:47] janette Inglewood: yes...all correct

[13:48] janette Inglewood: so..firstly....how do You know He is called Bill...tag?

[13:48] Hazzard Ruby: @

[13:48] janette Inglewood: then a pirate...tag alos?

[13:48] janette Inglewood: or did he say har har yo hoo hoo i be apirate called bill and i be robbin ya

[13:49] Carin McBride grins

[13:49] Loki Greymoon: palms face

[13:49] Stefania Wildrose laughs

[13:49] janette Inglewood: maybe he wore a pirate hat

[13:49] Kandyl Ghoststar laughs

[13:49] janette Inglewood: and yes...any witnesses?

[13:49] Jethro Button: circumstantial...

[13:49] janette Inglewood: was ther a ship?

[13:49] Kandyl Ghoststar: @

[13:50] janette Inglewood: then...where and when,,,what JURISDICTION...may apply

[13:50] Kandyl Ghoststar: ahh answered my question

[13:50] Stefania Wildrose: @

[13:50] janette Inglewood: all issues to be resolved straight away

[13:50] Carin McBride: ohh good point

[13:50] Jethro Button nods

[13:51] janette Inglewood: of course the victim wants instant response....but act on ooc information and You have destroyed the rp

[13:51] Kandyl Ghoststar: @

[13:51] janette Inglewood: ummi lost track of questions there

[13:51] janette Inglewood: Hazzard?

[13:53] Hazzard Ruby: I was going to ask about City limits issue but I guess thats about where the crime happened.

[13:53] janette Inglewood: yes

[13:53] janette Inglewood: Kandyl?

[13:53] Claudette Debruyere: @

[13:53] Kandyl Ghoststar: without all the relevant information the log can just be classed as OOC

[13:53] janette Inglewood: quite possibly yes

[13:54] janette Inglewood: Stefania?

[13:54] Stefania Wildrose: in a word, before accepting the case we must do investigate on it on IC bases

[13:54] janette Inglewood: correct

[13:54] janette Inglewood: Widow?

[13:55] Claudette Debruyere: I take the advocate class tomorrow and I was under the impression that the research and finding out background was up to the Advocate, not the Magistrate. Am I wrong?

[13:55] Hazzard Ruby: *laughs at "in a word"

[13:55] janette Inglewood: well it depends if there are any olnine....to be honest it is first on the scene normqlly

[13:55] Stefania Wildrose smiles at his laughs

[13:56] janette Inglewood: id prefer to assign it at once to investigation...yes

[13:56] Claudette Debruyere: This is all information you as a Magistrate will already have if the Advocate did their job

[13:56] Stefania Wildrose nods

[13:56] janette Inglewood: being a snooty High Magistrate id prefer it not to be me

[13:56] janette Inglewood laughs

[13:56] Claudette Debruyere: Alright

[13:57] Stefania Wildrose smiles

[13:57] janette Inglewood: however it needs to be dealt with quickly in the first instance,, before we lose the witnesses

[13:57] Loki Greymoon: chuckle snooty

[13:57] janette Inglewood: now one point before we have to close

[13:58] janette Inglewood: and this is controversial.........

[13:58] janette Inglewood: to some degree....i allow a picture of the event

[13:58] janette Inglewood: it may be that the victim could make a sketch

[13:59] janette Inglewood: some major feature of the criminal....the layout at the scene

[13:59] janette Inglewood: you have to use common sense about what is possible

[13:59] janette Inglewood: but i dont immediately call it ooc

[14:00] Hazzard Ruby: Makes sense.

[14:00] janette Inglewood: i dont use it as evidence exactly either....but i can be a guide

[14:00] Jethro Button: @

[14:00] janette Inglewood: Jethro?

[14:00] Jethro Button: One should not intimidate witnesses into clamming up

[14:01] Jethro Button: But disallow elements of their evidence

[14:01] janette Inglewood: how You handle witnesses is very important indeed......and we will do a class on investigating/reporting later

[14:01] Hazzard Ruby: *smiles

[14:01] janette Inglewood: they really need to be involved and well treated

[14:02] janette Inglewood: and of course feel safe

[14:02] janette Inglewood: so yes....good point

[14:02] Hazzard Ruby: You might need to ask questions to get info into IC.

[14:02] janette Inglewood: but the whole picture thing requires common sense mainly......what could be disclosed by a sketch

[14:03] janette Inglewood: well...the time has flown by.....excellent debate everyone

[14:03] janette Inglewood: any last questions?

[14:03] Carin McBride: I have one but its off topic

[14:03] Hazzard Ruby: Nope.

[14:03] Jethro Button: Thank you Lady Janette

[14:03] Hazzard Ruby: TYVM.

[14:04] Claudette Debruyere: Thank you lady Janette

[14:04] Georgia Beorn shakes her head

[14:04] Georgia Beorn: no thank you Lady JAn

[14:04] Stefania Wildrose: No, thank you, Lady Janette

[14:04] Kandyl Ghoststar: Thank you for a great class Lady Janette

[14:04] janette Inglewood: my pleasure....now then...class next week same place same time.....

[14:04] Tommy273 Beresford: Thank you again Lady Jan

[14:04] lacey Arentire: thank yo lady aneet

[14:04] janette Inglewood (OOC):  merry christmas everybody

[14:04] Carin McBride: thank you Lady Janette, I am looking forward for tomorrow for next class with you *smiles*

[14:04] Carissima Denver: Take care Lady Jan *smiles*

[14:05] Claudette Debruyere: Yes! Merry Christmas!

[14:05] Jethro Button OOC : You too

[14:05] Claudette Debruyere: waves

[14:05] Stefania Wildrose: I am too

[14:05] Jethro Button OOC : loved the Willow trial too, Janette

[14:05] janette Inglewood: yes advocates tomorrow...the first trial

[14:05] Stefania Wildrose: yes... smiling

[14:05] janette Inglewood: thank You

[14:06] Stefania Wildrose: safe paths

Magistrate class 1...1pm March 7

  2011-03-07 22:08:06 note card

Meeting Summary: Legal Academy - Magistrates Course, Class 1 (Jurisdiction)

Instructor: Janette Inglewood

Participants:

• Torin Novo

• Corinne Elan

• Elena Dreamscape (wanaki.anton)

• Lady Alys (alys.brim)

• Wicked Vintner

• Thurstön (thurston.woodford)

• Keru Imako (joined late)

• Ariella Farshore (joined late)

Meeting Summary:

Janette Inglewood welcomed participants to the first class of the 8-week Magistrates course at the Legal Academy. She outlined administrative details, including the class format (discursive, 1 hour per session, 2 pieces of written work), the availability of class scripts and handouts in the group, and the existence of a duplicate class at 5 PM SLT. She also introduced herself as an experienced lawyer, Magistrate, and High Magistrate on SL Gor, who has been running these classes for nearly two years, noting that over 50 former students now work in law or related fields across Gor. The course concludes with a certificate and plaque recognized by many Gorean cities.

The core topic of the class was jurisdiction and the four types of law mentioned in the Gorean books:

• Merchant Law: Covers crimes outside a city and regulations like weights and measures across Gor.

• Initiate Law: Deals with matters concerning the Priest-Kings or the White Caste; an attack on an Initiate is considered an attack on the Caste itself.

• City Law (Civil/Municipal Law): Applies to crimes committed within the city walls.

• Caste Law: Focuses on Caste codes and internal matters, such as a Warrior's behavior.

Janette provided several examples to clarify jurisdiction:

• An Initiate attacked in a city by mercs: Primarily Initiate Law, but could fall to City Law if Initiate authority is absent or defers.

• A Lady Physician without children whose patient dies from treatment: A Caste Law matter.

• A Merchant robbed while traveling to another City: Merchant Law.

• A Merchant from another City robbed within your City: City Law (of your city).

The discussion explored more complex scenarios, emphasizing the importance of correctly determining jurisdiction to avoid overstepping or failing to act:

• Warrior collaring a Free Woman from another City within their own City: The jurisdiction lies with the City where the collaring occurred. While the offended city might be invited to observe, the trial would take place under the laws of the Warrior's City.

• Conflict with Initiate Law: Janette explained that Initiates view attacks on their caste members as religious matters. While they may defer to the City if the attack is deemed random, or if they are unable to act (especially in SL Gor), the initial jurisdiction for crimes against Initiates (e.g., temple burning) typically falls under Initiate Law.

Janette concluded by advising students to always examine cases carefully and not hesitate to refer cases to the appropriate authority (Caste head, Initiate, Commander) if jurisdiction lies elsewhere. She would provide handouts, including the class transcript, a dictionary, and a list of laws, for students to review before the next session.

- Summary: Kati Evans

=======================================================================

[13:03]  janette Inglewood: Tal everyone and welcome to the Legal Academy first class for Magistrates

[13:03]  janette Inglewood: i am Jan.....and i shall be Your tutor for the next 8 weeks

[13:04]  Torin Novo: Welcome Lady Jan

[13:05]  janette Inglewood: excuse me incoming...chuckles

[13:06]  janette Inglewood: right so lets start with a few bits of admin

[13:07]  janette Inglewood: we are immune from raids in here...so you can remove meters and weapons to reduce lag

[13:07]  Torin Novo whispers: Welcome back Lady Ariella.

[13:08]  janette Inglewood: you now see how the system works....i just call for tps 15 mins before the class

[13:08]  Corinne Elan nods

[13:09]  janette Inglewood: this is an 8 week course.....1 hour per class and a couple of pieces of written work

[13:09]  janette Inglewood: i like it to be a discursive class so please feel free to get involved

[13:10]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton) listen carefully without saying a word

[13:10]  Corinne Elan listens and nods

[13:10]  janette Inglewood: to ask a question....denote a raised hand with the @ symbol

[13:10]  Lady Alys (alys.brim) nods

[13:10]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): nods

[13:10]  Alys's translator: / Me nods

[13:10]  Wicked Vintner nods

[13:11]  janette Inglewood: i send out a script of each class....plus various handouts in the class group

[13:11]  janette Inglewood: is anyone NOT a member of the academy class group?

[13:12]  janette Inglewood: excellent

[13:12]  janette Inglewood: as you will tell from my numerous typos...i do not copy and paste these classes

[13:12]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): @

[13:12]  janette Inglewood: they are 100% live and interactive

[13:13]  janette Inglewood: Elena?

[13:13]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): but we can copy the class or not nesseccary (grr sorry bad english sometime)

[13:14]  janette Inglewood: you can...but i send out copies in the class group

[13:14]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): <ok

[13:14]  janette Inglewood: a little about me before we get going......

[13:15]  janette Inglewood: i have worked as a Lawyer....Magistrate and High Magistrate on sl Gor for over 2 years now

[13:15]  janette Inglewood: i have run these classes since taking over from my mentor for nearly 2 earth years

[13:16]  janette Inglewood: and there are over 50 ex students working across Gor in law or some related field

[13:16]  janette Inglewood: the qualification is a valuable one....and not awarded lightly

[13:17]  Corinne Elan nods

[13:17]  janette Inglewood: it has a certificate and plaque for qualifiers at the end

[13:17]  janette Inglewood: and may of the cities of Gor recognise it

[13:17]  janette Inglewood: *many

[13:18]  janette Inglewood: there is the same class run at 5pm slt....so if you miss this one...you may attend that one

[13:18]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): nods

[13:19]  janette Inglewood: finally...tomorrow at 1 pm slt....there is the advocates class....focussing on court rp and being a lawyer rather than a Magistrate

[13:19]  janette Inglewood: i think that covers all the info....any questions on that?

[13:20]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): no

[13:20]  Wicked Vintner: sounds pretty straight forward

[13:20]  Corinne Elan shakes her hear: no lady

[13:20]  janette Inglewood: excellent

[13:21]  janette Inglewood: let's consider the first topic then

[13:21]  janette Inglewood: and that is Jurisdiction

[13:22]  janette Inglewood: of couse we take all our guidance from the books as much as we can

[13:22]  janette Inglewood: what types of Law are mention by Norman in the books?

[13:22]  Thurstön (thurston.woodford): @

[13:22]  Wicked Vintner: Merchant

[13:22]  Wicked Vintner: ((oops))

[13:23]  Thurstön (thurston.woodford): ((laughs))

[13:23]  janette Inglewood: Thurston?

[13:23]  Thurstön (thurston.woodford): ummmm Merchant Law

[13:23]  janette Inglewood: hahaha correct

[13:23]  Torin Novo: @

[13:23]  janette Inglewood: 3 more

[13:23]  janette Inglewood: Torin?

[13:24]  Torin Novo: Initiate Law?

[13:24]  janette Inglewood: correct

[13:25]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:25]  janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[13:25]  Wicked Vintner: civil government

[13:26]  janette Inglewood: yes...Norman calls it civil...city and minicipal law at various times....it is the same thing

[13:26]  janette Inglewood: ok one more

[13:27]  Torin Novo: @

[13:27]  janette Inglewood: the fourth...which is a sort of law for some....is Caste

[13:27]  Torin Novo: #

[13:27]  janette Inglewood: ah i beat you to it Torin

[13:27]  Corinne Elan smiles

[13:28]  janette Inglewood: so......Initiate law....the laws of the priest kings...solely dealing with religious matters....PK denial for example

[13:28]  janette Inglewood: City law.....covering any crimes within the city walls

[13:29]  janette Inglewood: merchant law covering any crimes outside of a city....plus things like weights and measures across Gor

[13:29]  Torin Novo: @

[13:29]  janette Inglewood: and Caste Law....Caste codes mainly...such as Warriors behaviour

[13:29]  janette Inglewood: Torin?

[13:30]  Torin Novo: When in the north where there is no caste, does it mean there is no jurisdiction of law?

[13:30]  janette Inglewood: things tend to be run by the villagers and High Jarls up there

[13:31]  Torin Novo nods. Thank you.

[13:31]  janette Inglewood: as City Magistrates we would have no jurisdiction unless invited to do so

[13:32]  janette Inglewood: now...it is crucila to understand when you have jurisdiction on a case and when you do not

[13:32]  janette Inglewood: *crucial

[13:32]  janette Inglewood: lets consider a few examples

[13:33]  janette Inglewood: an Initiate of Your City is attacked by mercs in a raid....who presides on that?

[13:33]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:34]  janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[13:34]  Wicked Vintner: that would be a city law, I would think

[13:34]  janette Inglewood: no it would be Initiate Law......however if there was none to deal with it....it would fall upon the City

[13:35]  janette Inglewood: if the Initiate is capped...then of course we would have to

[13:35]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:36]  janette Inglewood: how about...a Lady Physician who has not had children treats a wounded person who dies from the treatment?

[13:36]  janette Inglewood: sorry...Wicked?

[13:36]  Wicked Vintner: no worries, lets continue

[13:36]  janette Inglewood: alright....so anyone?

[13:37]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:37]  janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[13:37]  Wicked Vintner: caste matter

[13:37]  janette Inglewood: yes indeed...a Caste matter

[13:37]  janette Inglewood: a Merchant of Your City is robbed whilst travelling to another City?

[13:37]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): @

[13:38]  janette Inglewood: Elena?

[13:38]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): That would be merchant law

[13:38]  janette Inglewood: it would indeed

[13:39]  janette Inglewood: a Merchant of another City is robbed in Your City?

[13:39]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): @

[13:39]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:39]  janette Inglewood: Elena?

[13:39]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): city law?

[13:40]  janette Inglewood: yes the city law of the city they are in

[13:40]  janette Inglewood: namely your city

[13:40]  janette Inglewood: agree Wicked?

[13:40]  Wicked Vintner: yes

[13:41]  janette Inglewood: now whilst those are 4 straight forward examples....this subject can get quite muddy

[13:41]  janette Inglewood: and it is vital you are not coerced by others claiming jurisdiction...nor try to rule on a case that is not yours to rule on

[13:43]  janette Inglewood: so....how about this one

[13:44]  janette Inglewood: a Warrior collars a Free woman from another City.....no reason given and the City of the FW requests the Warrior be sent to them for trial

[13:44]  janette Inglewood: what would you say?

[13:44]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:45]  janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[13:45]  Wicked Vintner: where did the collaring take place?

[13:45]  janette Inglewood: in our city...that of the Warrior

[13:45]  Keru Imako: @

[13:46]  janette Inglewood: Keru?

[13:46]  Keru Imako: there is always a reason for and action even if not stated

[13:46]  Corinne Elan nods

[13:46]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): @

[13:46]  janette Inglewood: maybe, but who should be ruling on it?

[13:46]  janette Inglewood: Elena?

[13:46]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): logically the trial should be taken in the city where she got collar no?

[13:47]  Keru Imako: @

[13:47]  Torin Novo: @

[13:47]  janette Inglewood: yes correct....whether it is a trial or not...the jurisdiction is of the city where the crime occoursed

[13:47]  janette Inglewood: Keru?

[13:47]  Torin Novo: #

[13:47]  Keru Imako: there should be a invite sent to the offened city to off they sit in on the trail at the city where it happenede

[13:48]  janette Inglewood: yes i agree...i might well invite them to see justice is carried out

[13:48]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): nods

[13:48]  janette Inglewood: the point is...if a crime occours in your city...it is your city's laws that apply

[13:49]  janette Inglewood: you need to check...is it an Initiate matter...is it a caste matter

[13:50]  janette Inglewood: most city laws tend to comply with merchant laws anyway...and we shall look at that more another time

[13:50]  janette Inglewood: but always examine the case and decide to whom the jurisdiction apllies

[13:51]  janette Inglewood: and dont be afraid to refer the case if you think it should be dealt with by someone else

[13:52]  janette Inglewood: Caste head....Initiate.......Commander...whatever

[13:52]  janette Inglewood: any questions about jurisdiction?

[13:52]  Wicked Vintner: @

[13:52]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): shake her head

[13:52]  janette Inglewood: Wicked?

[13:53]  Wicked Vintner: back to that initiate and the merc...... I dont know too much about Initiate law, but can you explain why that case would not be city law?

[13:53]  Wicked Vintner: I mean, a citizen was attacked

[13:54]  janette Inglewood: Iniates would see any attack on one of them as an attack on the Caste itself...and would see it as a religious matter

[13:54]  Wicked Vintner: ah, I see

[13:54]  janette Inglewood: they may well conclude that it was merely a random attack and then hand the case back to you

[13:55]  janette Inglewood: but first call would be theirs as potential crimes against the PK's

[13:56]  janette Inglewood: the books do mention the conflict that can occour between us and Initiates

[13:56]  Thurstön (thurston.woodford): @

[13:56]  Wicked Vintner grins

[13:56]  janette Inglewood: and i had a case which i helped with in another City

[13:56]  janette Inglewood: the Initiates were being ridiculous

[13:57]  Wicked Vintner: of course

[13:57]  janette Inglewood: wanted to just kill a Man for basically nothing....and i did oppose this

[13:57]  janette Inglewood: Thurston?

[13:57]  Thurstön (thurston.woodford): If it was a potential crime against the PK's would it strictly be Initiate law?

[13:57]  janette Inglewood: yes it would

[13:58]  janette Inglewood: of course....on SL.....it can be hard to get them to act

[13:58]  janette Inglewood: temple burning for example...should really be Initiate law

[13:58]  janette Inglewood: but it ends up being dealt with by the City more often than not

[13:59]  janette Inglewood: any more questions?

[13:59]  Corinne Elan shakes her head

[13:59]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): shake her head

[13:59]  Wicked Vintner: none from me

[13:59]  janette Inglewood: right then...well i hope you have enjoyed this first discussion

[13:59]  Lady Alys (alys.brim): none for me

[13:59]  Alys's translator: ninth for me

[14:00]  Wicked Vintner: I have indeed

[14:00]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): nods

[14:00]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): same here

[14:00]  janette Inglewood: i shall send out a few hand outs in the group in a while

[14:00]  Corinne Elan smiles and nods

[14:00]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): smiles

[14:00]  janette Inglewood: so please check for them

[14:00]  Lady Alys (alys.brim): thanks

[14:00]  Corinne Elan: thank yu

[14:00]  Alys's translator: thanks

[14:00]  ℰlena Ðreamscape (wanaki.anton): thank you lady

[14:00]  janette Inglewood: the trranscript...a dictionary and a list of laws

[14:01]  Thurstön (thurston.woodford): Thank you Lady Janette

[14:01]  Ariella Farshore: Thank you Lady Janette

[14:01]  janette Inglewood: be well until next time....i hope to see you all same time same place next week....or tomorrow for advocates class

[14:01]  Wicked Vintner: tomorrow it is, lady

[14:01]  Corinne Elan smiles. be well and thank you

[14:01]  janette Inglewood: excellent....thank You and be well everyone